WITH KARLEE TWINER
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Each month, we choose a member’s request for research help, and our genealogy expert Karlee Twiner offers insight that might help dismantle their brick wall.
This month, we’ll highlight a question from our friend and fellow IxA member Martha Sorce, who we met in our first series of Roots & Branches classes last summer. She has hit problems trying to read these old documents.
Dear Karlee,
I am attaching 2 documents I found on IrishGenealogy.ie. I am hoping you are better at reading the old-fashioned writing than I am!
The first is the marriage record of Sylvester Quinn and Ellen Cleary.
Ellen was my great-great-grandfather Patrick Cleary’s sister. I have been looking for the names of my great-great-great grandparents for a long time. According to this record, her father’s name was John Cleary, and he was alive in 1875. Ellen’s residence says Churchtown. Can I safely assume that she was living with her father in Churchtown before her marriage?
Can you think of anywhere to look where I might find out the name of John’s wife?
How would I estimate John’s age? Patrick was born in 1846, and he had a brother named Martin born in 1840. There were a couple more brothers, but we don’t have their birthdates.
I have looked on IrishGenealogy several times, to try to find a death record for John Cleary, but I haven’t found one that seems to match up for Tagoat, Wexford or Churchtown. Perhaps I am not searching properly. I put in the search dates of 1875-1900.
The second document is a death record for a James Cleary who died in 1876. I can’t quite make out his age. Can you? It looks like the informant says Sylvester Quinn. I can’t read what it says under his name. The bottom line says Ford of Ling. I have a baptism record for James Quinn, born 1877, the son of Ellen Cleary Quinn and Sylvester Quinn in Ford of Ling, Wexford. So I am thinking that James Cleary is Ellen’s brother or maybe an uncle depending on his age. Can you make out what the cause of death says?
My ancestor Patrick’s oldest son was named James, and he also had a son named John. Of course, these are common names! But Sylvester is not, so that’s why I think it must be the same family.
Ellen died in Ireland, but I haven’t been able to find a death or burial record for her. Her husband Sylvester came to NY in 1897 and lived with Patrick until he got on his feet. We know this from oral history, and it has been verified by the census.
I appreciate any advice you can give.
Thank you,
Martha
Hi Martha!
In relation to your first question about whether Ellen would be living with her father before her marriage, I would say it’s a safe assumption. However, it is also not the only option. She may have been living with a sibling or even another family member. Parents are, of course, the more likely option.
To find the name of John’s wife, I would look for baptism records for Ellen. Ellen is a common name, but you have a more specific birthdate now, with her age and marriage date. If you can find siblings of Ellen as well, this can help narrow down who the mother is, too.
To guestimate (as I like to say) ages of parents, find the oldest child that you have information for. I usually like to assume that most fathers weren’t younger than 20 when their first child was born, so subtract 20 from the year that the oldest child was born, and that is a good end date for a range for the father’s birth year. How many children you have information for can also help determine the beginning number for the range as well. If you have children who were born 20 years apart, it’s safer to assume that the parents (especially the mother) were younger at the time of the first child’s birth. Of course, there are remarriages and other things to take into account, so I like to keep a plus-or-minus 10-year filter on when I think the father was born (so a 20 year date range).
James Cleary is definitely in his 70s at the time of his death. I am leaning toward 76, but the second number is a bit dodgy and could also be a 3 or a 5. With his age, he may have even been the grandfather of Ellen, which could also explain the naming of her child after him the next year.
Under Sylvester Quin’s name it says, “Present at Death.” The smaller words on top and right below his name are “His” and “Mark,” indicating he signed with the “X” between “Sylvester” and “Quinn.”
His cause of death box says “Asthma, Years, No Medical Attendant.”
I commend you for searching for Sylvester, as it is a less common name. That is a solid way to research. I think you’ve got a good footing, and hopefully I’ve been able to help by answering your questions.
Good luck!
Karlee
Do you have a tough a question for Karlee? Send your request with any supporting documents to stories@byancestry.com marked with the subject line ASK THE HERITAGE HELP DESK, and yours could be chosen for next month’s column!
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